napovedi strokovnih srečanj, seminarjev, kongresov in simpozijev
 luzr
#125800
Sebastjans napisal/-a:Nimam časa se ukvarjat s takimi, kot ste tu na forumu, ker sam nikoli ne bi govoril čez neko stvar ki je ne poznam, najprej bi preveril potem bi komentiral. Kar se tiče teka se lahko domenimo sploh ni problem in ne rabim nobenih zdravil, če koga to zanima (lahko samo potrkam), ker je prekratek čas da bi lahko govoril da je stanje dobro, upam pa na najboljše. Sem pa testiral mišice pri prijatelji ki dela po neki kitajski metodi in ni mogel verjet kaj se zgodi ko zaužiješ sok. Za vse na forumu tega soka se ne da kupit, dobi se ga samo v Avstriji in ga kupujete sami.


Sebastjans napisal/-a:Ko berem ta forum, opazam da nekateri ljudje govorijo tja v tri dni niti ne vejo za kaksen sok gre, niso ga niti probali kaj sele da bi kaj o njem vedeli. Ta sok pijem ze priblizno dva meseca in je fenomenaln, rezultati od uporabnikov ki ga uzivajo so pa naravnost čudežni. Preden kdo začne pisat kretenizem, pravljice naj se prepriča in če kdo želi lahko dobi telefon od dotičnih oseb ki se jim je zdravje v zelo kratkem času bistveno izboljpalo in so bili presenečeni da lahko nek sok ki se prodajo kot živilo in ga dobivamo iz Avstrije naredi take učinke. Če bi kdo samo malo prebral preden kaj blekne bi videl da ga uziva Carl Lewis in pravi da je to zanj naravni doping, da so prodali tega soka v svetu že v prvem letu delovanja za 50 miljonov $, v drugem kar za 450 miljonov $ in v 3 650 miljonov $ letnega prometa. Da imajo plan v 7 letih naredit miljardo $ letnega prometa, da dajo 7 % dobička za otroke ki nimajo doma. Da ustanovitelj xangota je prej odkril noni tudi zelo zdrav sok, sedaj pa je nasel sadez ki naj bi bil se bolj zdrav in ravno zato ker zmeljejo cel sadez v flaso. Če pa koga interisira gre pa lako to soboto na Dunaj, ker pride Joe Morton ustanovitelj in naj mi javi na zasebno sporočilo in bo iz prve roke zvedel vse o tem soku. Drugače pa želim vsem en lep dan in naj se vzdrzijo komentarjev ce nimajo pojma o soku o podjetju in ljudeh ki jim je pomagal. Primerov je se ogromno ne bom jih nasteval, sam sm zelo tezak asmatik in se mi je bistveno izboljsalo, zato sem odgovoril na take in drugacne komentarje.


Označil sem samo nekaj neskladij...
 Sebastjans
#125806
Kot sem napisal sedaj ne rabim nobenih zdravil, se enkrat rajs potrkam, kar se tiče spodaj sem izpustil da sem bil zelo zežk asmatik in se mi je stanje bistveno izboljšalo in upam da se bodo težave umirile in da bo tako stanje kot je sedaj,
 klopotec
#125809
bobr napisal/-a:
bobr napisal/-a:
Me prav zanima koliko kil sadja in zelenjave boš dnevno stiskal za primerjavo z mojimi tableti :wink:

Ne veliko bobr, ne veliko. In vse to kar je v tvojih tabletkah, raste za vogalom moje hiše (hiša je na deželi, ki je zelo redko poseljena) in na mojem vrtu. In vsi vitaminčki in encimčki in.... iz mojega sokca so dosti lažje dostopni tvojemu telesu, ker so živi, tvoji pa so sintetični in jih rabiš pojesti dosti več, da jih potem pride do tja, kjer so koristni.
Upam bobr, da je najin dialog dobro nameren. Sem hodil okoli zdravnikov z mojim artritisom ves sključen, pa sintetika ni nič pomagala. Sokci pa se me pripravili celo do Palmanove, kjer sva celo spregovorila nekaj besed. Brez njih bi jaz doma jamral, ti pa tam užival. Seveda pa ne mislim, da ti ne smeš jest svojih tabletk. Samo pravim, da obstaja boljša alternativa. Pa to ti bodo povedali celo tisti, ki tabletke izdelujejo in prodajajo.

Vsak ima svoje kajne.
Jaz bi rade volje šel v naravo živet in uživat sveže zdravo sadje z zelenjavo. Ampak ker sem del meščanske potrošniške družbe in veleblagovniške uvožene sadjarskozelenjavarske srenje si ne morem drugače pomagat. Še dobro da žena občasno kako solatko vzgoji na najinem malem meščanskem vrtu :roll:

Bobr moram ti ugovarjat. Tudi če si del "meščanske potrošniške družbe in veleblagovniške uvožene sadjarskozelenjavarske srenje" si lahko pomagaš. To je samo izgovor. Vse se da, če je le volja. In čestitke ženi, ki se trudi s solatko.
Uporabniški avatar
 bobr
#125816
klopotec napisal/-a:Bobr moram ti ugovarjat. Tudi če si del "meščanske potrošniške družbe in veleblagovniške uvožene sadjarskozelenjavarske srenje" si lahko pomagaš. To je samo izgovor. Vse se da, če je le volja. In čestitke ženi, ki se trudi s solatko.

Seveda se vse da. Meni se pač ne da natrpavat kile in kile pasiranega sadja in zelenjave :oops:
 johnson
#125836
Ma neverjetno, no! :D

klopotec napisal/-a:Tega jaz ne vem, če se ti motiš, ker ne poznam ne soka, ne nobenih eventualnih raziskav.
Vprašal sem te le, kako ti veš, da bi lahko po tem soku bilo še slabše. Tu sta si potem z janzyjem enaka. Oba nekaj trdita, noben pa nima nobenih dokazov. No, janzy navaja neke pričevalce.

Obstajajo določene znanstvene raziskave o škodljivih učinkih. Tudi janzy je priznal, da je v določenih primerih res tako. To je bilo napisano že v tem forumu pred tvojim postom, tako da špeli ni kaj očitati.

ton napisal/-a:Tole me spominja na ona verižna pisma iz rane mladosti, ki jih zdaj začenja dobivati že moja hčerka: vse najlepše in super, pazi pa se, če ne boš...

Če želiš, Janzy, ljudem dobro, in je tvoj napitek res čudežen, imaš dve možnosti:
- zadevo registriraj kot zdravilo in jo bodo bolni dobivali na recept ali
- najdi sponzorja in jo taistim bolnim deli brezplačno.

V vseh drugih primerih boš obveljal za dobičkarja, ki služi na človeški nesreči.

Se strinjam.

klopotec napisal/-a:Saj ni velike razlike. Si pač nasedel nekomu drugemu in ne jazyju. Ti si po eni strani mogoče še na slabšem, ker jemlješ sintetične zadeve, jazy pa ponuja en tak pasteriziran sok. Po eni strani si pa na boljšem. Tvoje tabletke so mnogo, mnogo cenejše.

Pozabil si še na eno prednost - njegove tabletke so testirane, navedeni so morebitni stranski učinki... skratka so povsem varne. Vsak, ki jih uživa, VE v kaj se spušča in kaj bodo te tabletke naredile. S tem janzyjevim sokom pa ni tako.

Sebastjans napisal/-a:Ko berem ta forum, opazam da nekateri ljudje govorijo tja v tri dni niti ne vejo za kaksen sok gre, niso ga niti probali kaj sele da bi kaj o njem vedeli. Ta sok pijem ze priblizno dva meseca in je fenomenaln, rezultati od uporabnikov ki ga uzivajo so pa naravnost čudežni. Preden kdo začne pisat kretenizem, pravljice naj se prepriča in če kdo želi lahko dobi telefon od dotičnih oseb ki se jim je zdravje v zelo kratkem času bistveno izboljpalo in so bili presenečeni da lahko nek sok ki se prodajo kot živilo in ga dobivamo iz Avstrije naredi take učinke. Če bi kdo samo malo prebral preden kaj blekne bi videl da ga uziva Carl Lewis in pravi da je to zanj naravni doping, da so prodali tega soka v svetu že v prvem letu delovanja za 50 miljonov $, v drugem kar za 450 miljonov $ in v 3 650 miljonov $ letnega prometa. Da imajo plan v 7 letih naredit miljardo $ letnega prometa, da dajo 7 % dobička za otroke ki nimajo doma. Da ustanovitelj xangota je prej odkril noni tudi zelo zdrav sok, sedaj pa je nasel sadez ki naj bi bil se bolj zdrav in ravno zato ker zmeljejo cel sadez v flaso. Če pa koga interisira gre pa lako to soboto na Dunaj, ker pride Joe Morton ustanovitelj in naj mi javi na zasebno sporočilo in bo iz prve roke zvedel vse o tem soku. Drugače pa želim vsem en lep dan in naj se vzdrzijo komentarjev ce nimajo pojma o soku o podjetju in ljudeh ki jim je pomagal. Primerov je se ogromno ne bom jih nasteval, sam sm zelo tezak asmatik in se mi je bistveno izboljsalo, zato sem odgovoril na take in drugacne komentarje.

No, to pa mora odpreti oči vsakemu dvomljivcu. Te sokove prodajajo isti ljudje, ki so pred kakšnim letom prodajali tri knjige, ki te naučijo uspeha, po 400-500 evrov vsaka. Tam notri pa menda piše, da je formula za uspeh, da prodaš te knjige trem drugim ljudem.
Kako je to hudo, ko te zaslepi denar. :(

janzy napisal/-a:
spela* napisal/-a:
janzy napisal/-a:Pa veš zakaj so tistemu odpovedala jetra?
Ker ni smel v telo dobiti preveč kalija, ki ga ima pa noni kar nekaj, tako da si je kriv sam! Sem 1x pri eni gospe predaval za sok, pa je prvo vprašala koliko ima kalija in ko smo pogledali je takoj rekla da ona tega ne sme!
Tudi ona bi bila lahko v isti usodi, vendar je sama pri sebi pazila kaj da vase.


Vidiš, sam priznavaš, da je nisi opozoril na to, kar je bila TVOJA DOLŽNOST, ne pa, da je morala sama spraševati o tem. Pri zdravilih so pač navedeni stranski učinki in kontraindikacije. Pri tem soku ne. Obljubljaš, da "ne more škoditi, ker je naraven" (tvoje besede), če pa komu škodi, si je pa sam kriv. :!: :?:


Če je nekdo bolan, pa mu zdravniki rečejo da ne sme jesti kalija, se more sam pozanimati kaj vzame, jaz sem mu dolžen povedati, ampak me more on opozoriti pa se posvetovati z zdravnikom! Pa to ni stranski učinek če ne sme jesti kalija, ker potem ne sme jesti banan, ki imajo tudi veliko kalija!

To ni res. Ti moraš vsakogar opozoriti na vse morebitne težave pri uživanju soka in to VNAPREJ. V nasprotnem primeru boš kazensko odgovoren, če se kakšni tvoji stranki kaj zgodi. To ti pišem dobronamerno tako zate, kot seveda tudi za tvoje stranke. Seveda pa nočeš opozoriti na vse morebitne težave, ker boš prodal manj soka oziroma ljudje ne bodo hoteli priti na predstavitev? Upam, da nisi tak in da še vidiš skozi obljube o mastnih dobičkih, ki so ti jih natvezili. Dajva biti poštena, samo za to gre - obljubljeni bajni dobički. Ravno nek humanitarec mi ne zgledaš. Pa da ne bo pomote, tudi farmacevtske družbe se mi ne zdijo hudi humanitarci, edina razlika je, da so podvržene izjemnim zakonskim regulativam, nadzorom in da imajo ogromen stroške, preden spravijo zdravilo na trg.

Sebastjans napisal/-a:Klopotec, ti lahko naredis kakrsnkoli sok in bi bil zelo zadovoljen ce ti uspe naredit tak sok s takimi ucinki, dokler pa ti to ne uspe pa ne pisi neumnosti, namrec ta sadez je bil proglasen za kralja sadezov in ze kraljica Victorija je dala vsakemu ki ji je prinesel mangosteen plemiški naziv, James Cook je na svojih potovanjih vedno imel mengosteen Še strokovnjaki ne vejo kako lahko tako pozitivno vpliva na človeško telo in so nekako prisli do zakljucka da verjetno to ker zmeljejo cel sadez da daje take ucinke, ker je celota.Predem pisete preverite, če kdo želi mu pošljem celo literaturo in si lahko vse prebere o tem sadezu, tako da ne boste tolkli v prazno.

Jah, jaz sem pa slišal, da je kraljica vsakemu ponudila oralno zadovoljitev, če ji je prinesel cimet. Skratka, časi se spreminjajo. Včasih so te zasipali z zlatom in darili, če si prišel iz "Amerike", danes pa te pregledajo, če nisi slučajno kaj pretihotapil.

janzy napisal/-a:
spela* napisal/-a:
janzy napisal/-a:
To je res, pa zdravila imajo tudi stranske učinke, kaj pa na to praviš?


Seveda jih imajo. A ti stranski učinki so navedeni (MORAJO biti navedeni) v deklaraciji, ki je priložena prav vsakemu zdravilu.


Ja, na soku jih pa pač ni, ker jih nima!

Edino jetra lahko odpovejo, druzga nič, res. Majke mi! :wink: Nisi ravno farmacevt, ne? Veš, kaj so "stranski učinki", kako je to definirano? Vse morebitne težave morajo biti navedene in dokumentirane.

Sebastjans napisal/-a:Nimam časa se ukvarjat s takimi, kot ste tu na forumu, ker sam nikoli ne bi govoril čez neko stvar ki je ne poznam, najprej bi preveril potem bi komentiral.

Dokaži. Jaz imam nek poseben preparat, ki preventivno deluje na srce in živčevje. Kako ga naredim, je moja stvar. Si za probo? Bo sicer stala 100 evrov, ampak to je lahko začetek novega življenja zate!

Aja, to, kar pije in pravi Carl Lewis, jaz ne bi jemal resno. Tip ima že veliko masla na glavi in je po zadnjih odkritih dokumentih jemal doping. Njegove in teste še nekaj ducatov ostalih ameriških atletov je ameriška zveza pometla pod preprogo, da so lahko šli na olimpijske igre. Tega človeka jaz ne spoštujem. Pa tudi drugače sem jaz skeptičen ob takih izjavah znanih ljudi.
 johnson
#125837
Še malce poduka o tem sadežu in tem soku. Poudarki so moji...
Dr. Ralph Moss napisal/-a:In this age of frenzied commercialism, entrepreneurs are always on the lookout for ways to make it big in the natural medicines market. Under such conditions, however, new medicines of botanical origin cannot be developed or tested in an orderly way.


A common feature of the way in which natural medicines such as mangosteen are promoted is the use of network marketing. This involves the retailing of products through the use of independent distributors. These distributors are then encouraged to build and manage their own sales force by recruiting, motivating, supplying, and training others to sell products. Compensation in such arrangements includes the distributor's own sales as well as a percentage of the sales of his or her entire "downline" (i.e., all those people signed up by an individual, who in turn go on to become salespeople). The term network marketing is virtually synonymous with the older but now somewhat disreputable term 'multi-level marketing' (MLM).

Network marketing turns mere consumers into determined marketers who aggressively sell their product, often to their own friends, relatives and neighbors. The more people they can recruit into the growing network the more money they themselves make. A sophisticated marketing blitz, including books and pamphlets, seemingly objective newsletters, press releases and chattering websites, inflate the importance of a product, creating a buzz that only dies away when the huge supply of potential customers and salespeople is finally exhausted. Or when, as it has on occasion, the government finally steps in. But the essential requirement for a successful MLM operation of this sort is a kernel of promising-sounding scientific evidence, coupled with a credible and compelling story, a compliant doctor willing to underwrite the concept, and finally some patients (who may themselves be distributors) willing to testify that the product led to astounding cures.

Aloe vera, colloidal minerals, gingko biloba and ginseng were all popularized in this way. But perhaps the most memorable example of a network marketing stampede is noni juice, a once totally obscure Polynesian fruit that became the basis of a huge industry. Tahitian Noni International, formerly called Morinda, last year claimed to have passed the two billion dollar sales mark! This is the sort of performance that makes get-rich-quick artists drool.


The price of their XanGo mangosteen juice is currently $37 per bottle (or four for $100). You have to ask yourself: who on earth would pay that much for a bottle of fruit juice, no matter how delicious it might be? The reason the marketers can succeed in selling juice at this price is obvious: when people are suffering from medical conditions for which there does not appear to be much hope, or for which the orthodox medical recommendations are too toxic or expensive, they will actively seek alternatives. And then someone, oftentimes someone they trust, such as a friend or neighbor, convinces them to give some new product a try. Products such as mangosteen exploit humanity's understandable desire to discover simple and painless solutions to intractable problems.


As stated, one requirement for a successful network promotion is that there be at least a kernel of scientific truth around which exaggerated claims can be assembled. As with noni juice, mangosteen is not entirely without scientific documentation. The problem, as usual, is that the claims for mangosteen are inflated till they far outpace what has been established through careful experimentation.


Some mangosteen promoters have mined James Duke's famous ethnobotanical database for confirmation of their product's value. And, indeed, Dr. Duke confirms that the plant contains several interesting components. But so do thousands of other plants in his voluminous database. For most of the chemicals contained in this fruit (such as beta-mangostin, catechins, cis-hex-3-enyl-acetate, gamma-mangostin, gartanin, garcinones) the database lists NO particular biochemical activities. Only the compound called "mangostin" seems to have some scientific backing for its antibacterial, antiseptic and fungicidal properties (Recio 1989). Yet scores of mangosteen websites now cite Duke's database as scientific justification for this product. In reality, Dr. Duke has absolutely nothing to do with any mangosteen distributor and is not particularly enthusiastic about the product.

Much is made of the xanthone connection. According to the MyXanGo.com website: "There are over 200 xanthones in nature. Each xanthone can have specific effects on the body. What's remarkable about the mangosteen is that there are over 40 xanthones identified in the pericarp, or rind, making it the single most xanthone-rich source in the world….Only six of the xanthones have been studied in depth. While we don't know fully why the mangosteen works on such a wide variety of physical conditions, we know it has to do with being the world's most potent source of xanthones. Each xanthone has its own effect, and when combined, they take on a synergistic quality that supports the health of the entire body."

But all of this is speculative. It is undoubtedly true that there are many xanthones (a kind of antioxidant) in mangosteen. In fact, according to the Merck Index (11th Ed., p. 5613) the first scientifically defined substance to be derived from mangosteen was the xanthone mangostin. This was isolated by a German scientist named Schmid in 1855. In 1979, mangostin was found to have significant anti-inflammatory and anti-ulcer effects in rats (Shankaranarayan 1979). Yet although mangosteen's xanthones have been known for almost 150 years, there are still only 19 PubMed articles on these xanthones and none of these articles concerns the use of xanthones in the actual clinical treatment of human disease. So I would say the jury is still out on their effectiveness in treating anything.

The main XanGo website also claims that the antioxidant ORAC (oxygen radical absorbance capacity) value of mangosteen is the highest of all edible plants. "It is so potent that literally I know of nothing else in the supplement market that can possibly come even close to it," says J. Frederic Templeman, MD, a Georgia family practitioner who is interviewed at the MyXanGo website. Many other XanGo-promoting websites repeat the claim that while the previous champion, prunes, have an ORAC value of 7,000 per ounce, mangosteen has an ORAC value of 17,000 to 24,000.

Yet XanGo sites claim that "a new champion" has been born in the worldwide contest for ORAC supremacy. But where in the scientific literature is the ORAC value of XanGo published? The source of these numbers is hard to track down. For instance, the Sunsweet prune website states that 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of prunes have an ORAC value of 5,770. While the ORAC values for most fruits and vegetables have been determined by standard laboratories and published in scientific journals, this is not so for mangosteen. I have not seen independent confirmation of these confidently promulgated claims. However, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the figures cited are indeed accurate, it must be pointed out that merely having an astronomically high ORAC value does not in and of itself confer any particular advantage. Not all antioxidants that are confirmed as present in the laboratory can be absorbed by human beings. And there is a limit to how much we can benefit from an increased intake of antioxidants.

According to Dr. Ronald Prior of the US Department of Agriculture Research Service at Tufts University, Boston, Massachusetts, "a significant increase in antioxidants of 15 to 20 percent is possible by increasing consumption of fruits and vegetables, particularly those high in ORAC value." However, in order to have a significant impact on plasma and tissue antioxidant capacity one can only meaningfully increase one's daily intake by 3,000 to 5,000 ORAC units. Any greater amount is probably redundant. That is because the antioxidant capacity of the blood is tightly regulated, says Dr. Prior. Thus there is an upper limit to the benefit that can be derived from antioxidants. Taking in 25,000 ORAC units at one time (as reputedly occurs with mangosteen) would be no more beneficial than taking in a fifth of that amount: the excess is simply excreted by the kidneys.

According to Dr. J. Frederic Templeman, a Georgia family practitioner who has written a small book on mangosteen, and who is widely quoted by XanGo marketers, if you take these antioxidants "you aren't going to probably have a heart attack as fast as someone who doesn't take them" and consuming them could therefore constitute "literally the difference between life and death." ( :) )Although I myself have written a book on the subject of the benefit of antioxidants (Antioxidants Against Cancer), I would say it is a tremendous stretch to claim that antioxidants are predictably going to save anyone's life. Good health is achieved through a combination of many factors, hereditary as well as environmental.


So it is high time for a reality check. Has mangosteen really been thoroughly studied in terms of its effect on cancer and a host of other diseases? Or is this simply a wild extrapolation driven by strong commercial motives?

Dr. Templeman refers to 44 scientific publications on this topic but there are just 29 articles on the topic of Garcinia mangostana in PubMed, the US National Library of Medicine database of 14+ million citations. A total of four of these studies relate to cancer. In one test tube experiment it was shown that a xanthone found in mangosteen kills cancer cells as effectively as many chemotherapeutic drugs. It also appears (on the basis of limited data) that compounds found abundantly in mangosteen can inhibit the harmful Cox 1 and Cox 2 enzymes, and can also induce programmed cell death (apoptosis) in aberrant cells (Ho 2002). Mangosteen thus joins a fairly long list of naturally derived compounds that might potentially have some anticancer activity.

These 29 articles do not constitute a wealth of data. For example, by contrast, PubMed lists over 2,300 articles on the topic of vitamin C and cancer, 125 of which refer to clinical trials. There are a similar number of studies on vitamin E and cancer. There are 835 studies of melatonin and cancer, and a truly impressive 16,000 on polysaccharides and cancer, including 536 clinical trials and 277 randomized controlled trials (RCTs).

Yet, we're to believe that four test-tube experiments constitute - to quote the aforementioned Dr. Templeman - "mountains of evidence" on the benefits of XanGo.

According to the promotional website of one of XanGo's many "independent distributors" at http://bjsbytes.com/Xango/Questions.htm:

"...much of the science behind xanthones is predominantly available to those in the medical community until recently. Many of the clinical studies on xanthones have been done in universities and testing facilities throughout Asia and have recently started to catch the attention of Western researchers."

But is this true? Reputable researchers the world over, including those in Asia, publish in PubMed-listed journals. For example there are over 63,000 articles on cancer in PubMed in the Japanese language. Yet despite the website's misleading talk about "clinical studies," PubMed does not contain a single clinical trial of mangosteen in the treatment of cancer, or any other disease. Perhaps these promoters don't realize that a clinical study is not something done in a laboratory, but a study that by definition is carried out on living patients. Laboratory studies on cell lines or even animals do not qualify for the title 'clinical study'.

Thus, despite what you may read at any one of those 21,000 promotional websites, very little scientific evidence exists concerning mangosteen's anticancer activity in humans.

In my opinion, what we have here is simply an overpriced fruit drink.


Priporočam še branje teh člančičev:
http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/ ... &zoneid=43
With nutrient content so sparse, mangosteen appears not to qualify for “superfruit status” as would other other rare fruits having excellent nutrient and/or phytochemical contents, such as açai, goji (“wolfberry”) and pomegranate (3). These antioxidant fruits are cast as “superfruits” for meeting the criteria above.

Torej stvar definitivno nima nekaih posebnih fitohranil in obstaja precej sadja, ki so bolj "super". Recimo volčja češnja, ki ima pač ogromno vitamina C in tudi fitohranil, ki omogočajo boljšo absorbcijo v telo.
It is worth noting that all “mangosteen” juices on the market contain juices of other high-antioxidant fruits, such as blueberry, cranberry, raspberry, strawberry and grape (example, 9) – all potentially contributing diverse antioxidant phytochemicals as phenolic pigments that could account for the antioxidant benefit of a juice derived from mangosteen.

Sam sadež mangosteena ima zelo verjetno NIZEK nivo ORAC, ker je sredica svetla, bela. Znanstveniki so očitno ugotovili, da imajo višji nivo sadeži z intenzivno barvo. Besedo "verjetno" sem uporabil zato, ker do danes (dobro, do leta 2007) ni niti ENEGA testa, ki bi povedal, koliko je tega v tem sadežu. Zanimivo. Poglejte, kaj je vse v tistem soku, nekdo je to omenil že na tem forumu. Veliko je točno teh sadežev, ki so bogati z antioksidanti oziroma imajo visok nivo ORAC. Seveda, nekaj mora ta sok vleči ven, ker sam sadež mangosteen je pač v tem oziru reven. Ven se vleče, po domače povedano se ŠLEPA z ostalimi sokovi, ki so mu dodani. :D

Še ena stran:
http://mangosteen.com/Sciencenonscienceandnonsense.htm

In za konec bom še navedel tole za janzyja. Da bo videl, kaj je problematično pri njegovem načinu prodajanja:
http://www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/ ... g6031d.htm
Upam, da veš, kaj je to FDA, janzy. Na koncu piše "These claims cause your product to be a drug". To je točno to, kar ti trdiš, in ko ti bo nekdo stopil na prste, boš za to odgovarjal pred pristojnimi organi.

Najbolj žalostno pa je, da sem s tem postom verjetno vložil v raziskavo tega sadeža in soka več časa, kot janzy in Sebastjan skupaj. :(
 janzy
#125839
johnson napisal/-a:Še malce poduka o tem sadežu in tem soku. Poudarki so moji...
Dr. Ralph Moss napisal/-a:In this age of frenzied commercialism, entrepreneurs are always on the lookout for ways to make it big in the natural medicines market. Under such conditions, however, new medicines of botanical origin cannot be developed or tested in an orderly way.


A common feature of the way in which natural medicines such as mangosteen are promoted is the use of network marketing. This involves the retailing of products through the use of independent distributors. These distributors are then encouraged to build and manage their own sales force by recruiting, motivating, supplying, and training others to sell products. Compensation in such arrangements includes the distributor's own sales as well as a percentage of the sales of his or her entire "downline" (i.e., all those people signed up by an individual, who in turn go on to become salespeople). The term network marketing is virtually synonymous with the older but now somewhat disreputable term 'multi-level marketing' (MLM).

Network marketing turns mere consumers into determined marketers who aggressively sell their product, often to their own friends, relatives and neighbors. The more people they can recruit into the growing network the more money they themselves make. A sophisticated marketing blitz, including books and pamphlets, seemingly objective newsletters, press releases and chattering websites, inflate the importance of a product, creating a buzz that only dies away when the huge supply of potential customers and salespeople is finally exhausted. Or when, as it has on occasion, the government finally steps in. But the essential requirement for a successful MLM operation of this sort is a kernel of promising-sounding scientific evidence, coupled with a credible and compelling story, a compliant doctor willing to underwrite the concept, and finally some patients (who may themselves be distributors) willing to testify that the product led to astounding cures.

Aloe vera, colloidal minerals, gingko biloba and ginseng were all popularized in this way. But perhaps the most memorable example of a network marketing stampede is noni juice, a once totally obscure Polynesian fruit that became the basis of a huge industry. Tahitian Noni International, formerly called Morinda, last year claimed to have passed the two billion dollar sales mark! This is the sort of performance that makes get-rich-quick artists drool.


The price of their XanGo mangosteen juice is currently $37 per bottle (or four for $100). You have to ask yourself: who on earth would pay that much for a bottle of fruit juice, no matter how delicious it might be? The reason the marketers can succeed in selling juice at this price is obvious: when people are suffering from medical conditions for which there does not appear to be much hope, or for which the orthodox medical recommendations are too toxic or expensive, they will actively seek alternatives. And then someone, oftentimes someone they trust, such as a friend or neighbor, convinces them to give some new product a try. Products such as mangosteen exploit humanity's understandable desire to discover simple and painless solutions to intractable problems.


As stated, one requirement for a successful network promotion is that there be at least a kernel of scientific truth around which exaggerated claims can be assembled. As with noni juice, mangosteen is not entirely without scientific documentation. The problem, as usual, is that the claims for mangosteen are inflated till they far outpace what has been established through careful experimentation.


Some mangosteen promoters have mined James Duke's famous ethnobotanical database for confirmation of their product's value. And, indeed, Dr. Duke confirms that the plant contains several interesting components. But so do thousands of other plants in his voluminous database. For most of the chemicals contained in this fruit (such as beta-mangostin, catechins, cis-hex-3-enyl-acetate, gamma-mangostin, gartanin, garcinones) the database lists NO particular biochemical activities. Only the compound called "mangostin" seems to have some scientific backing for its antibacterial, antiseptic and fungicidal properties (Recio 1989). Yet scores of mangosteen websites now cite Duke's database as scientific justification for this product. In reality, Dr. Duke has absolutely nothing to do with any mangosteen distributor and is not particularly enthusiastic about the product.

Much is made of the xanthone connection. According to the MyXanGo.com website: "There are over 200 xanthones in nature. Each xanthone can have specific effects on the body. What's remarkable about the mangosteen is that there are over 40 xanthones identified in the pericarp, or rind, making it the single most xanthone-rich source in the world….Only six of the xanthones have been studied in depth. While we don't know fully why the mangosteen works on such a wide variety of physical conditions, we know it has to do with being the world's most potent source of xanthones. Each xanthone has its own effect, and when combined, they take on a synergistic quality that supports the health of the entire body."

But all of this is speculative. It is undoubtedly true that there are many xanthones (a kind of antioxidant) in mangosteen. In fact, according to the Merck Index (11th Ed., p. 5613) the first scientifically defined substance to be derived from mangosteen was the xanthone mangostin. This was isolated by a German scientist named Schmid in 1855. In 1979, mangostin was found to have significant anti-inflammatory and anti-ulcer effects in rats (Shankaranarayan 1979). Yet although mangosteen's xanthones have been known for almost 150 years, there are still only 19 PubMed articles on these xanthones and none of these articles concerns the use of xanthones in the actual clinical treatment of human disease. So I would say the jury is still out on their effectiveness in treating anything.

The main XanGo website also claims that the antioxidant ORAC (oxygen radical absorbance capacity) value of mangosteen is the highest of all edible plants. "It is so potent that literally I know of nothing else in the supplement market that can possibly come even close to it," says J. Frederic Templeman, MD, a Georgia family practitioner who is interviewed at the MyXanGo website. Many other XanGo-promoting websites repeat the claim that while the previous champion, prunes, have an ORAC value of 7,000 per ounce, mangosteen has an ORAC value of 17,000 to 24,000.

Yet XanGo sites claim that "a new champion" has been born in the worldwide contest for ORAC supremacy. But where in the scientific literature is the ORAC value of XanGo published? The source of these numbers is hard to track down. For instance, the Sunsweet prune website states that 100 grams (3.5 ounces) of prunes have an ORAC value of 5,770. While the ORAC values for most fruits and vegetables have been determined by standard laboratories and published in scientific journals, this is not so for mangosteen. I have not seen independent confirmation of these confidently promulgated claims. However, even if we assume for the sake of argument that the figures cited are indeed accurate, it must be pointed out that merely having an astronomically high ORAC value does not in and of itself confer any particular advantage. Not all antioxidants that are confirmed as present in the laboratory can be absorbed by human beings. And there is a limit to how much we can benefit from an increased intake of antioxidants.

According to Dr. Ronald Prior of the US Department of Agriculture Research Service at Tufts University, Boston, Massachusetts, "a significant increase in antioxidants of 15 to 20 percent is possible by increasing consumption of fruits and vegetables, particularly those high in ORAC value." However, in order to have a significant impact on plasma and tissue antioxidant capacity one can only meaningfully increase one's daily intake by 3,000 to 5,000 ORAC units. Any greater amount is probably redundant. That is because the antioxidant capacity of the blood is tightly regulated, says Dr. Prior. Thus there is an upper limit to the benefit that can be derived from antioxidants. Taking in 25,000 ORAC units at one time (as reputedly occurs with mangosteen) would be no more beneficial than taking in a fifth of that amount: the excess is simply excreted by the kidneys.

According to Dr. J. Frederic Templeman, a Georgia family practitioner who has written a small book on mangosteen, and who is widely quoted by XanGo marketers, if you take these antioxidants "you aren't going to probably have a heart attack as fast as someone who doesn't take them" and consuming them could therefore constitute "literally the difference between life and death." ( :) )Although I myself have written a book on the subject of the benefit of antioxidants (Antioxidants Against Cancer), I would say it is a tremendous stretch to claim that antioxidants are predictably going to save anyone's life. Good health is achieved through a combination of many factors, hereditary as well as environmental.


So it is high time for a reality check. Has mangosteen really been thoroughly studied in terms of its effect on cancer and a host of other diseases? Or is this simply a wild extrapolation driven by strong commercial motives?

Dr. Templeman refers to 44 scientific publications on this topic but there are just 29 articles on the topic of Garcinia mangostana in PubMed, the US National Library of Medicine database of 14+ million citations. A total of four of these studies relate to cancer. In one test tube experiment it was shown that a xanthone found in mangosteen kills cancer cells as effectively as many chemotherapeutic drugs. It also appears (on the basis of limited data) that compounds found abundantly in mangosteen can inhibit the harmful Cox 1 and Cox 2 enzymes, and can also induce programmed cell death (apoptosis) in aberrant cells (Ho 2002). Mangosteen thus joins a fairly long list of naturally derived compounds that might potentially have some anticancer activity.

These 29 articles do not constitute a wealth of data. For example, by contrast, PubMed lists over 2,300 articles on the topic of vitamin C and cancer, 125 of which refer to clinical trials. There are a similar number of studies on vitamin E and cancer. There are 835 studies of melatonin and cancer, and a truly impressive 16,000 on polysaccharides and cancer, including 536 clinical trials and 277 randomized controlled trials (RCTs).

Yet, we're to believe that four test-tube experiments constitute - to quote the aforementioned Dr. Templeman - "mountains of evidence" on the benefits of XanGo.

According to the promotional website of one of XanGo's many "independent distributors" at http://bjsbytes.com/Xango/Questions.htm:

"...much of the science behind xanthones is predominantly available to those in the medical community until recently. Many of the clinical studies on xanthones have been done in universities and testing facilities throughout Asia and have recently started to catch the attention of Western researchers."

But is this true? Reputable researchers the world over, including those in Asia, publish in PubMed-listed journals. For example there are over 63,000 articles on cancer in PubMed in the Japanese language. Yet despite the website's misleading talk about "clinical studies," PubMed does not contain a single clinical trial of mangosteen in the treatment of cancer, or any other disease. Perhaps these promoters don't realize that a clinical study is not something done in a laboratory, but a study that by definition is carried out on living patients. Laboratory studies on cell lines or even animals do not qualify for the title 'clinical study'.

Thus, despite what you may read at any one of those 21,000 promotional websites, very little scientific evidence exists concerning mangosteen's anticancer activity in humans.

In my opinion, what we have here is simply an overpriced fruit drink.


Priporočam še branje teh člančičev:
http://www.npicenter.com/anm/templates/ ... &zoneid=43
With nutrient content so sparse, mangosteen appears not to qualify for “superfruit status” as would other other rare fruits having excellent nutrient and/or phytochemical contents, such as açai, goji (“wolfberry”) and pomegranate (3). These antioxidant fruits are cast as “superfruits” for meeting the criteria above.

Torej stvar definitivno nima nekaih posebnih fitohranil in obstaja precej sadja, ki so bolj "super". Recimo volčja češnja, ki ima pač ogromno vitamina C in tudi fitohranil, ki omogočajo boljšo absorbcijo v telo.
It is worth noting that all “mangosteen” juices on the market contain juices of other high-antioxidant fruits, such as blueberry, cranberry, raspberry, strawberry and grape (example, 9) – all potentially contributing diverse antioxidant phytochemicals as phenolic pigments that could account for the antioxidant benefit of a juice derived from mangosteen.

Sam sadež mangosteena ima zelo verjetno NIZEK nivo ORAC, ker je sredica svetla, bela. Znanstveniki so očitno ugotovili, da imajo višji nivo sadeži z intenzivno barvo. Besedo "verjetno" sem uporabil zato, ker do danes (dobro, do leta 2007) ni niti ENEGA testa, ki bi povedal, koliko je tega v tem sadežu. Zanimivo. Poglejte, kaj je vse v tistem soku, nekdo je to omenil že na tem forumu. Veliko je točno teh sadežev, ki so bogati z antioksidanti oziroma imajo visok nivo ORAC. Seveda, nekaj mora ta sok vleči ven, ker sam sadež mangosteen je pač v tem oziru reven. Ven se vleče, po domače povedano se ŠLEPA z ostalimi sokovi, ki so mu dodani. :D

Še ena stran:
http://mangosteen.com/Sciencenonscienceandnonsense.htm

In za konec bom še navedel tole za janzyja. Da bo videl, kaj je problematično pri njegovem načinu prodajanja:
http://www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/ ... g6031d.htm
Upam, da veš, kaj je to FDA, janzy. Na koncu piše "These claims cause your product to be a drug". To je točno to, kar ti trdiš, in ko ti bo nekdo stopil na prste, boš za to odgovarjal pred pristojnimi organi.

Najbolj žalostno pa je, da sem s tem postom verjetno vložil v raziskavo tega sadeža in soka več časa, kot janzy in Sebastjan skupaj. :(


Si se res potrudil in našel veliko stvari.
Samo povedal bi še da jaz nikomur ne prodajam in da ga uživam sam!
Samo priporočam ga naprej če koga zanima.
Če ga kdo hoče ga dobi direktno od firme ne od mene, tako da veste!

Lep dan še naprej!
Uporabniški avatar
 lukkka
#125841
Če pomaga, pomaga - svaka čast, našli ste univerzalno zdravilo za tegobe človeštva in njegovega zdravstva :D , kaj ne bo pomagalo, saj vsebuje 17.000 antioksidantov -
mi jih lahko prosim naštejete prvih 1000 :?:

pa kako to, da še noben ni vprašal po ceni tega napitka. Sej mogoče je pa kar ugoden, glede na to koliko je zdrav :?
Uporabniški avatar
 Radolca
#125842
tole vam in nam je pa dal mislt :shock:
ne vem, ali se bomo pustil takili propagandi al kaj :?:
eden je sprožil plaz takih in drugačnih mnenj.
kot sem že napisal: poleg čokoladce za zdravljenje mačka po piru mi zrihtejte še pir :toast: za zdravljenje mačka po vinu :roll:
 dragann
#125844
Radolca bravo! :laola
in ko bo na razpolago čokoladca za zdravljenje mačka po piru in pir za zdravljenje mačka po vinu bom stal v vrsti.
:toast:
 johnson
#125846
janzy napisal/-a:Si se res potrudil in našel veliko stvari.
Samo povedal bi še da jaz nikomur ne prodajam in da ga uživam sam!
Samo priporočam ga naprej če koga zanima.
Če ga kdo hoče ga dobi direktno od firme ne od mene, tako da veste!

Lep dan še naprej!

Ja, to razumem. Si pač promotor, verjemi, da zelo dobro vem, kako to stvari delujejo v mrežnem marketingu. Zato pa je recimo FDA poslala opozorilo samemu proizvajalcu in ne vsakemu posebej. Ampak tovrstne izjave pa daješ tudi ti in če (kar vsi srčno upamo, da ne bo) bo kaj narobe, te lahko začopatijo vsaj s kakšno civilno tožbo.

Hvala za lepe želje drugače, moji dnevi so vsi lepi! Enako želim tudi tebi.
 Igi69
#125847
Vprašanje je, zakaj naprimer država preganja različne goljufije, ne preganja pa razno razne astologe in razno razne prodajalce "čudežnih" napitkov, ki največ služijo ravno na ljudeh v hudi stiski.
 janzy
#125852
johnson napisal/-a:
janzy napisal/-a:Si se res potrudil in našel veliko stvari.
Samo povedal bi še da jaz nikomur ne prodajam in da ga uživam sam!
Samo priporočam ga naprej če koga zanima.
Če ga kdo hoče ga dobi direktno od firme ne od mene, tako da veste!

Lep dan še naprej!

Ja, to razumem. Si pač promotor, verjemi, da zelo dobro vem, kako to stvari delujejo v mrežnem marketingu. Zato pa je recimo FDA poslala opozorilo samemu proizvajalcu in ne vsakemu posebej. Ampak tovrstne izjave pa daješ tudi ti in če (kar vsi srčno upamo, da ne bo) bo kaj narobe, te lahko začopatijo vsaj s kakšno civilno tožbo.

Hvala za lepe želje drugače, moji dnevi so vsi lepi! Enako želim tudi tebi.


Moje mnenje je da je ta sok predvsem treba piti preventivno!
Če pa bi lahko slučajno kakšnemu pomagal, ki mu prej nobena stvar ni je pa tudi lepo, se strinjaš?
Vsakemu ki me pokliče ga prve vprašam, zakaj bi ga pil, nato se posvetujemo če ga lahko, tako da ne vidim problemov, da bi kdo imel kakšne posledice zaradi soka.
 janzy
#125853
Igi69 napisal/-a:Vprašanje je, zakaj naprimer država preganja različne goljufije, ne preganja pa razno razne astologe in razno razne prodajalce "čudežnih" napitkov, ki največ služijo ravno na ljudeh v hudi stiski.


Če ponudiš nekomu eno stvar, da bi mu pomagala, ne vidim razloga zakaj bi služil na njemu, ker ga kupi po isti ceni kot jaz.
To je tako, kot bi tebe preganjali ker bi povedal nekomo da je v eni gostilni dobro za jesti! Plačala pa bi oba enako!
 janzy
#125854
To ni res. Ti moraš vsakogar opozoriti na vse morebitne težave pri uživanju soka in to VNAPREJ. V nasprotnem primeru boš kazensko odgovoren, če se kakšni tvoji stranki kaj zgodi. To ti pišem dobronamerno tako zate, kot seveda tudi za tvoje stranke. Seveda pa nočeš opozoriti na vse morebitne težave, ker boš prodal manj soka oziroma ljudje ne bodo hoteli priti na predstavitev? Upam, da nisi tak in da še vidiš skozi obljube o mastnih dobičkih, ki so ti jih natvezili. Dajva biti poštena, samo za to gre - obljubljeni bajni dobički. Ravno nek humanitarec mi ne zgledaš. Pa da ne bo pomote, tudi farmacevtske družbe se mi ne zdijo hudi humanitarci, edina razlika je, da so podvržene izjemnim zakonskim regulativam, nadzorom in da imajo ogromen stroške, preden spravijo zdravilo na trg.

To je seveda res in to tudi storim!
Sploh mi ni noben dajov informacij o bajnih zaslužkih ampak zaslužiš lahko samo toliko kolikor narediš za to.
Delam vsekakor po pravilih in tega se držim!
Tudi pri noniju nisem dvem strankam prodal ker smo se posvetovali!
Ker vem da so lahko posledice, vsekakor pa hvala za posvarilo!
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